America
At War:
Landmines and Cluster Bombs
www.washingtonpost.com
With Gina Coplon-Newfield
Coordinator of the U.S. Campaign to Ban Landmines (USCBL)
Wednesday, Nov. 7, 2001; 3 p.m. EST
Decades
of war in Afghanistan have left the country littered with millions
of land mines that pose dangers to the people there and potentially
to U.S. soldiers in action there.
Join Gina Coplon-Newfield, coordinator of the U.S. Campaign to
Ban Landmines (USCBL), on Wednesday, Nov. 7, at 3 p.m. EST to
talk about landmines and cluster bombs in Afghanistan.
Coplon-Newfield organizes groups throughout the country to advocate
to policy-makers about the global landmines crisis and the need
for the U.S. to join the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty. The USCBL is a
coalition of nearly 500 organizations and is based at Physicians
for Human Rights in Boston. Coplon-Newfield is a graduate of Tufts
University.
The transcript follows.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial
control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant
questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to
answer questions.
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washingtonpost.com: What do we know about the use
of cluster bombs in Afghanistan? Are they effective against Taliban
military targets? Have civilians suffered from their use?
Gina Coplon-Newfield: The U.S. military has confirmed
that they have been deploying cluster bombs during their air raids
in Afghanistan. CBU-87s have been the most common type of cluster
bombs, according to Pentagon reports. It is impossible for us
to know whether these weapons have been effective against Taliban
forces. What we do know is that cluster bombs pose a risk to civilians
because of their high "dud" rate, because their color is similar
to that of air-dropped food packets, and because they are difficult
to aim against particular targets. We have reports that on Oct.
22, U.S. cluster bomb submunitions killed 9 civilians and injured
14 near Herat.
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Lexington, Mass.: The US is one of few nations who has not
signed the treaty to ban landmines. Landmines (and cluster bombs)
kill and maim more innocent people than intended military personnel.
What effect will continued use of these weapons by the US, have
on the perception of many countries - that the US is an arrogant,
evil doing, terrorist state? Will this lead towards peace or towards
festering more terrorism?
Gina Coplon-Newfield: Given that nearly three quarters
of the world's nations, including almost all of NATO, have joined
the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty, there is a global norm that has banned
and stigmatized this weapon. The United States' refusal to join
the Mine Ban Treaty does give political cover to countries such
as Russia that continue to use this weapon with devastating consequences
for civilian populations. If the United States does indeed decide
to deploy antipersonnel landmines in Afghanistan, many of the
world's countries will see this as an example of the U.S. ignoring
civilian safety concerns and international law. U.S. accession
to the treaty will encourage mine users to eliminate the weapon
from their arsenals.
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South Kingstown, R.I.: How have landmines affected U.S.
soldiers in past conflicts?
Gina Coplon-Newfield: In Vietnam, one third of U.S. casualties
were from landmines. An estimated 80-90% of the mines that caused
these casualties were made or laid by the United States. American
soldiers in the Gulf War also were harmed by their own landmines.
In fact, antipersonnel landmines have been so lethal to U.S. soldiers,
that 9 senior, retired U.S. generals and admirals sent a letter
to President Bush in May stating: "Pentagon casualty reports from
Korea, Vietnam, and the Persian Gulf attest to the tremendous
toll that apm [antipersonnel landmines], many of them our own,
have taken on our service men and women."
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Mt. Lebanon, Pa.: In light of our sterling ability to force
the nations of the world to stop making chemical and pathogen-based
weapons, nuclear-tipped devices, and who knows what other agents
of violent outrage, what makes you think your organization has
a hope of containing and eliminating landmines from the face of
the earth? Not forgetting that landmines are a primitive technology
that can be made by the most backwards civilization and likely,
are most used by the most primitive societies on earth. Thanks
much.
Gina Coplon-Newfield: The 1997 Mine Ban Treaty has already
made tremendous strides in decreasing landmine production, stockpiling,
use, and export. For example, mine producing countries have plummeted
from 54 to 14 in the past few years. Most importantly, fewer people
have been maimed and killed by this insidious weapon since the
ban began to take effect. U.S. participation in this global ban
would further help save lives.
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Boston, Mass.: Ms. Coplon-Newfield, Having painfully watched
the lack of accuracy with the air-drops for food, how likely is
it that these drops are being inadvertently dropped into unmarked
minefields? As a follow up, is your organization aware of Taliban
soldiers forcing civilians to walk through possible minefields
to gather food drop supplies? I am glad to see that the USCBL
is working hard on such an important and urgent issue. -- Marc
Gina Coplon-Newfield: Many minefields in Afghanistan and
elsewhere in the world are unmarked. It is certainly possible
that U.S. forces are dropping food rations in dangerous minefields
in Afghanistan. We have heard reports that mine casualty rates
in the country have increased over the past two months. This could
be because of refugee movement and civlian attempts to collect
food. We have not heard reports of the Taliban forcing civilians
to walk through minefields, but we have heard multiple reports
that Taliban forces have been raiding demining offices and beating
demining employees.
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Washington, D.C.: Does the US bear any responsibility for
the landmine problem in Afghanistan?
Gina Coplon-Newfield: According to the Landmine Monitor
2001, a report by large team of International Campaign to Ban
Landmines researchers, most of the mines in the ground are from
two decades of fighting between Russian and Mujahideen forces.
It is difficult to determine whether any of these mines were supplied
by the U.S.
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Washington, D.C.: If the U.S. does deploy landmines in
Afghanistan, what will be the long term impact?
Gina Coplon-Newfield: The U.S. forces in Vietnam did deploy
antipersonnel landmines in large numbers and suffered many thousands
of casualties from these weapons. There are still civlian casualties
today in Vietnam from U.S. made or laid landmines. If the U.S.
decides to deploy antipersonnel landmines in Afghanistan, an option
military officials have stated is on the table, there is no reason
to expect that U.S. forces and Afghan civilians would not suffer
casualties from these mines. In the long term, U.S. mine deployment
in Afghanistan would exacerbate the humanitarian crisis caused
by the mines already on the ground in the country. Post-war rehabilitation
-farming, transportation, aid delivery, access to health services-
would be significantly harmed by further mine deployment in Afghanistan.
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Washington, D.C.: What reason has the U.S. given for refusing
to joing the Land mine Ban Treaty? Also, to play devil's advocate,
if adequate communication and record-keeping as to the exact location
of U.S. planted land mines exists, can they be an effective tool
of warfare?
Gina Coplon-Newfield: Former President Clinton was the
first world leader to call for a global ban on antipersonnel landmines.
However, his administration failed to join the Mine Ban Treaty,
citing two reasons: the so-called need for mines in the demilitarized
zone (DMZ) in Korea to protect against a North Korean invasion
and the so-called lack of alternatives to the weapon. Military
experts have stated, however, that the mines in the DMZ would
impede a North Korean invasion by only 25 minutes. Many military
experts have also stated that there are existing alternatives
to landmines, both in tactics and in weapons. All of NATO, except
for Turkey and the United States, have employed these alternatives
and have given up this weapon that kills far more civilians than
soldiers.
If the U.S. did deploy mines in Afghanistan, they would likely
drop them from high altitudes and in high numbers, making it nearly
impossible to map them.
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Hot Springs, Ark.: Has the US dropped landmines on Afghanistan?
Gina Coplon-Newfield: The New York Times and London Times
reported that the U.S. was indeed deploying in Afghanistan mixed
mine systems that include antipersonnel landmines. Having spoken
with some of our allied groups who contacts at the Pentagon, however,
we believe that this report may have been false. However, U.S.
military leaders have recently stated that they have not ruled
out the option of using antipersonnel landmines during the military
campaign. The U.S. Campaign to Ban Landmines, a coalition of 500
religious, human rights, veterans, humanitarian, and medical groups,
have called for a moratorium on landmine deployment by the U.S.
in Afghanistan.
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West Newbury, Mass.: What's the best way for interested
U.S. citizens to advocate for the Mine Ban Treaty?
Gina Coplon-Newfield: There are many ways for U.S. citizens
to advocate for the Mine Ban Treaty. The first thing they can
do is to urge their Senators, Representatives, and the White House
to support a moratorium on antipersonnel landmines in Afghanistan.
To date, no political leader in this country has called for the
U.S. to agree not to use this weapon during the campaign in Afghanistan.
In addition to letters (we urge people to fax them, given the
problems with the mail in DC), people can write letters to the
editor, call into radio talk shows, sign the veterans sign-on
letter to the President, and encourage others in their community
to do the same.
Additionally, people can host a dinner to help clear and ban landmines.
The "Night of a Thousand Dinners" initiative will take place in
late Nov/early December.
For information on how to host a dinner, sign the veterans sign
on letter, sample letters to legislators and the editor, and other
ways to get involved, people can visit the U.S. Campaign to Ban
Landmines website: www.banminesusa.org.
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Clinton, Md.: How has the U.S. bombing campaign affected demining
efforts in Afghanistan?
How will the U.S. bombing campaign affect future demining efforts
in Afghanistan?
Gina Coplon-Newfield: Before September 11, Afghanistan
had one of the most sophisticated demining programs in the world.
This program came to a halt on September 11 when most of the deminers
lost their funding, insurance, and safety. Since then we have
heard reports from the UN Mine Action Program in Afghanistan (UNMAPA)
that mine casualty rates have increased, but their teams are unable
to continue their life-saving work to remove mines. UNMAPA has
also indicated that their teams have been unable to identify and
safely remove the many new cluster bomb munitions on the ground
because they lack the proper training and information. The United
Nations has called for the U.S. to submit this information to
the deminers to allow them to remove the cluster munitions to
prevent further civilian deaths.
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Bethesda, Md: Modern land mines used by our military are
designed to become inactive after a certain period of time. In
effect they become unarmed weapons, that pose little threat. They
are not the same as the ones you describe being used in past wars.
This being the case, why deny our soldiers the use of such an
effective weapon?
Gina Coplon-Newfield: It is true that the United States
posseses and might deploy in Afghanistan so called "smart mines"
that self destruct after a programmed amount of hours or days.
However, these mines are also dangerous to civilians for many
reasons: 1) They are usually dropped by air in large numbers and
are thus hard to map and remove. 2) Some of these "smart mines"
fail to self destruct and remain a danger to civilians. Even small
failure rates lead deminers and civilians attempting to go about
their lives to approach "smart mined" areas with fear and caution.
Deminers must approach a "smart minefield" as they would approach
a "dumb minefield" with just as much money, staff, resources,
and time. 3) In conflicts such as the one in Afghanistan, refugees
and soldiers move very quickly. There is no reason to expect that
Afghan civilians and U.S. soldiers would not be at risk from U.S.
deployed "smart mines."
As a final note on this issue, "smart mines" are banned by the
Mine Ban Treaty because most of the world has recognized their
danger to civilians. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Washington, D.C.: I have heard that some of these bombs that
turn out to be "duds" could be mistaken as food packages for Afghan
refugees, is this correct?
Gina Coplon-Newfield: The cluster bombs are apparently
the same bright yellow color as the food packets that U.S. forces
are dropping in Afghanistan. This may put civilians at risk for
picking up and being killed by cluster bombs. A few days ago,
military officials indicated that they would change the color
of the food packets. However, we heard today that they might not
do so. We urge the U.S. government to make any aid provisions
a color not to be confused with dangerous weapons. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Centreville, Va.: With the current administration declaring
war on Terrorism, what will it take to get our country's leaders
and the Pentagon to realize that the use of landmines is a terrible
violation to the Human Rights of thousands of innocent people
residing in nations where landmines are deployed? These indescriminate
weapons are indeed a type of terrorism that kills and maims thousands
of innocent people yearly!
Gina Coplon-Newfield: I would not come to work every morning
if I did not believe that we could influence our legislators'
decisions and policies. It sometimes seems difficult to persuade
decision-makers of views that promote human rights, but it is
important to keep trying through education, media outreach, advocacy,
and organizing. Many never believed that the International Campaign
to Ban Landmines could succeed in putting a treaty on the table
that would eventually be signed and adhered to by the majority
of the world's nations. Keep trying!
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Boston, Mass.: I am a reservist in the US Navy Seabees.
I have made plans on the possibility of being deployed.
I would like to remind you that we are at war. Taking landmines,
hand grenades, bombs, anything off of the war table is foolish.
The two, now, missing towers from New York should be imbedded
into your life. This war shouldn't have come as a surprise to
anyone.
My question is simple. People talk about banning landmines as
a tool of war. Why would we take landmines out of the equation
when they serve an effective and manytimes defensive purpose?
Gina Coplon-Newfield: The attacks of September 11 are also
imbedded in my mind and in my heart. It was devastating to watch
the loss of so many innocent civilians to such indiscriminate
acts of violence. Antipersonnel landmines have been banned by
the majority of the world because of their indiscriminate nature.
If you talk to mothers of children lost to landmines in Kosovo,
Colombia, Mozambique, or Afghanistan, you would be angered by
the loss of their children due to a weapon intended for somebody
else. Let us not forget the thousands of U.S. soldiers who have
been maimed or killed by antipersonnel landmines in Vietnam and
the Persian Gulf. As General Hollingsworth, former commander of
U.S. forces in Korea, has stated, antipersonnel landmines are
more of a hindrance than a help to U.S. forces. It is time for
the U.S. to ban them to protect civilians and U.S. troops. Though
wars have tragic inevitable consequences, there are humanitarian
laws that govern their effects on civilians.
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Hartford, Conn.: How would the US use land mines in Afganistan
? Would they be covertly deployed by special operations personnel
in areas where there is Taliban activity ? Would they be used
to protect US ground troops if or when they are deployed? Are
land mines an effective way to wage war ? It didn't seem to do
the Soviets much good.
Gina Coplon-Newfield: You are right that landmines were
a danger to Russian forces in Afghanistan. In fact, estimates
indicate that one third of Soviet casualties during that conflict
were due to antipersonnel landmines. U.S. ground troops may also
be at risk. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Longview, Wash.: Good afternoon.
I've been perusing your site and I was unaware of all the facts
about land mines in Afghanistan.
If U.S. forces are deploying MORE mines, given that there are
already 2 million there, it is unconciousable and it flies in
the face of Bush's assertion that he doesn't want to harm civilians.
War has a nasty habit of creating NEW terrorists.
Is there anything I can do with your organization to help make
sure the United States government, doesn't inadvertantly, become
as bad as the terrorists themselves?
Thank you.
Gina Coplon-Newfield: Most of the reports that we have
seen actually indicate that there are more like 8-10 million landmines
in the ground in Afghanitan, making it one of the most severely-mined
countries in the ground. In fact, Afghan citizens in 27 out of
29 provinces are in danger of stepping on the weapon.
There are many ways to get involved in the campaign. Please visit
our website www.banminesusa.org to learn how.
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Worcester, Mass.: Seeing as these are small mobile operation
that are in Afghanistan, wouldn't mines laid by American troops
further interrupt the fluidity of movement they need to defeat
such a mobile and elusive enemy? I thought 20 Generals had already
told the President how these weapons are strategically counterproductive!
Gina Coplon-Newfield: U.S. warplans do depend upon a high
degree of mobility. Landmines, whether deployed by opposing forces
or by U.S. troops themselves, slow operational tempo. Yes, several
high-ranking, retired, U.S. generals did send a letter to President
Bush calling for U.S. accession to the Mine Ban Treaty for these
very reasons, not to mention the devastating loss of life suffered
by civilians from the weapon. You can see a copy of this letter
at www.banminesusa.org. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gina Coplon-Newfield: Thank you to those who have participated
in this on-line discussion about landmines in Afghanistan. Though
we do not have landmines threatening our very lives in our own
backyards in the United States, it is heartening that so many
people in this country care about the millions of people who do
face this daily danger. Antipersonnel landmines pose an overwhelming
threat to civilians and U.S. troops in Afghanistan as well as
to civilians in more than 80 other countries. Most of these countries
have extremely limited access to medical care.
To help the U.S. Campaign to Ban Landmines in our efforts to convince
U.S. policy-makers to ban and clear landmines and help landmine
victims, please visit www.banminesusa.org or email us at landmines@fcnl.org.
On the website, you can sign up for the bi-weekly email newsletter
to keep you up to date on the issue and what you can do to get
involved in the campaign. There is a lot you can do to help.
Thank you.
